REVALATION- Things are not what they seem, some people have there own agenda!!
Going to the climate camp meeting last night I finally realised that climate camp is not about climate camp!! people have there own agenda, Im not saying its not a good thing and there are so many nice people involved in it, but I feel the main point in it is ANGRY ANARCHI!! Which I feel really sad and let down about, because its something I feel really strongly about. Basicly I had an idea about bringing up climate issues at the general elctions in may.. all people wanted to talk about was things that are debateable on whether it will change anything... I was along the same lines as not many people in that building it was really sad. I was told that that isnt what climate camp was about- IF THIS ISNT WHAT CLIMATE CAMP IS ABOUT THEN WHAT IS IT ABOUT? but it also great because I know now that what it was about is a lie, and I can move on and do something more forfilling with my time
its different down south...
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this bits a little about me
- losteden
- Im a art student gay guy living on the southcoast of England in just about the most liberal place here+ Brighton! tryin to make the most out of every moment... and loving every second of it At the moment I'm in my second year of college :)
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI understand your concerns – climate camp meetings can definitely be discouraging for newcomers! There are certainly a lot of anarchists at climate camp, but there are just as many of us who wouldn’t identify ourselves as anarchists.
The direction of the neighbourhood meetings is largely dependent on who decides to show up that week (I wasn’t there yesterday). Right now I think a lot of people are feeling a bit washed out from Copenhagen and general winter blues. It is that time of year when everyone in the UK extra cynical about everything.
Also, just because some people questioned your ideas at the meeting, it doesn’t mean that Climate Camp thinks they’re bad ideas. We tend to work autonomously and many of our best actions were carried out by people who formed small working groups and carried everything out on their own. The meetings are often more of a general update for what is going on and to get people to volunteer for certain upcoming events.
I’d love to hear more about your ideas – feel free to contact me. Even if you don’t feel that CC works for you, I’d be happy to point you in the direction of a different group that might be more suitable for what you’re looking for.
Miss Shenanigans
Hi there. I have a lot of time for the Camp, I have been to many of its actions and some meetings, but I also understand some of your concerns.. There are many strands in the camp (which is why I would worry about trying to branch into too many things or to have a broader political agenda), and some of them are definitely illiberal.
ReplyDeleteMy concern is that there are elements in CC who are trying to push people's energies into more general 'left' issues, which although perhaps perfectly valid in their own right, taken together have the potential to turn CC into something like the revolutionary socialists or SWP, taking away from the focus on Climate Change.
I agree with Miss Shenanigans on the point though that people cannot expect CC to be everything. In my humble opinion it is not a new world order, or a revolution in the waiting. It is an environmental protest group, and a good one. The people in it might start a revolution, but in itself it is a useful climate change campaign tool...
Right, I'll shut up now!
The Mushy Pea
these disucssions reflect to some extent my (and others') worries about the direction climate camp could take, and to a degree seems to be taking. For me it is vital the climate camp, or whatever it turns into, has a decent political analysis behind it's actions. I think it's important that we remain broad enough to have wide participation and that we aren't overly prescriptive (and also avoid falling into the trap of only having radical rhetoric, with no action.. ie all mouth and no unisex trousers. But for me a DA movement based solely on drawing attention to climate change as an issue, that acts as some sort of radical lobby group, would be pretty disastrous. I think what we need to do is take the principals behind climate justice (or looking at climate change through a social justice perspective), and se how we can translate them into action in the UK. It may seem appealing to have as broad a base as possible, but you will always have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise we would end up inviting David Cameron or Bin Laden to our meetings. I know discussing 'anti-capitalism' and 'anarchism' might seem a bit scary or even dogmatic to some, but climate change IS a political issue and trying to address it without examinging how we got here, what the root causes are, is pointless. If we want avoid catastrophic climate change, then it really isnt enough to stop new coal or aviation expansion, it is (parhaps over slightly different timescales) also going to involve making some fundamental changes to our society and how we as a species share our resources.. and thats gonna involve some politics! I think campaiging on coal, tar sands, avaiation etc. is great, but it all needs to part of something much bigger, ie a social movement with a clear systematic critique. Hmm, not sure ive expressed this as well as i might have done, but i hope you can see where im coming from. chris.
ReplyDeleteThese dicussions about what cliamte camp are about seem confused, and I think thats because what climate camp is, its confusing. Everybody has their own idea or take on what it's about, and those ideas dont always work well together. I'm not sure how to solve this as to say its is about something particular may come across as dogmatic, but you need to draw some kind of line if you are gonna be a group that does things, however automonsyly under one banner.
ReplyDeleteFor me Chris's comments above ring most true, in particular the idea that climate change IS political (not necesarily about CO2 emissions, which many have been taught to think) but about political and economic systems of our society, that are unjust. therefore, cc for me is a place that I can work with other people, I hope with a coherent (radical) political stance... hopefully that work is more than just protest, but a place where we enact a different kind of society through our actions, i.e keeping cc events vegan, taking action on political economic causes i.e. industry, corporations, and working in as non hierarchically as poss.. hopefully maybe we can do more than this too... anyway, not sure if ive veared way off the point. but talking about anarchist and anti capitalist politics, is an important underpinning of our actions... and we should do it more (though not fall into just doing that...) sorry i dont know what the discussions at the meeting about election actions were about and cant comment.
hope that was a useful comment for someone!
I think Stop Climate Chaos is going to target marginal seats at the general election through its constituent groups.
ReplyDeleteHmmmm..... I guess people attending Camp for Climate Action meetings might benefit and save some time and effort by reading the shared principles and 'what unites us' texts. One of the most fundamental elements of this is the believe that corporations and governments are inherent in the problem and can not supply the solutions. While it may not use the label, the Camp for Climate Action was born out of the anarchist ecological direct action movement and maintains that anti-authoritarian position. Those people wanting to work within the system through government and the party political system are almost certainly not going to find support within the Camp for Climate Action but there are plenty of organisations where such activities are practised and welcome.
ReplyDeleteThat said, in practise the Camp for Climate Action often entertains ideas and actions which ARE in their essence about lobbying (perhaps in somewhat more militant ways than usually associated with the term).
While the Camp rhetoric is that companies and governments can't supply the solutions, it is those agencies for change which the Camp tends to turn to, rejecting the notion that even collectively, individuals can bring about the necessary changes except by addressing the systemic 'roots' of the problem. For the camp, that root is capitalism and so the Camp for Climate Action is basically an anarchist anti-capitalist group that seeks the total dismantling of the current dominant economic and authoritative system in order to address the issue of climate change.
Thankyou so much for all your comments, I appreciate them all.
ReplyDeleteI feel it is precicly this dogmatic aproach that has put me, and Im sure many others off.
I completely "get" the fact that corperate companies, capitalism, and the "system" is the reason why we are in this fucking mess to start with. I came to climate camp to address this and was not nieve in doing so. How can we change anything through violent motives? How can we expect anyone to listen to us or take us seriously? There IS a place for protest, and it does create change in society. I just feel climate camp needs to say what it IS!! Its very confusing.. Im however very greatful for climate camp for getting me involved in starting this journey, and it is certainly not the end!! watch this space xx
One last thing... I think we all agree that governments and corporations are part of the problem... I guess the disagreements arise over what exactly we want to replace them with or how we should change them!!
ReplyDeleteIncidentally I think most of the disagreements over 'anarchy' come from what people mean... to some it means decentralisation and anti-authoritianism, to others it is short-hand (perhaps incorrectly) for the tedious 'fuck-you' brigade.
I came across your article in my Google Alert. I think you make some very good points in terms of climate camp, the more centralized and unnecessary yet another Wishy washy NGOs like Greenpeace, enough already.
ReplyDeleteI think we must abandon the old left / right axis to go after a new political compass, the integration of various elements which transcends and includes them as we speak.
The group I am with one of the few who see the triple whammy next climate change, peak oil and the collapse of capitalism / Banks so pathetic (after the failure this time) as an opportunity.We feel the need is so that when Push Comes To Shove, we want to be ready to take the upper hand on the wheel, the government is strong.
The key to climate change is really about people, immigration too, it would follow China and
Limitation of minority ethnic children and pay them to be sterilized. We suggest the limits of growth and the need to act now.
We believe in the local, people assembly, the relocation of production, food miles, barefoot, with a Maoist approach, such as oil, we put people back into the land, including the petty bourgeoisie and intellectuals. British jobs for British Gordon Brown said. Many of our people are in transition cities, to ensure they are in the right direction.
We have a lot of intrusion into the traditional Tory areas, COFE (forward in faith and evangelical pro-life)
Mothers Union, WI, Freemasons, the Rotary Club and so on. As the movement Tea Party in the United States and anarchists, libertarians, small state, off the grid.
when I awakened your appetite, commenting here and I'll contact the usual channels.
the man
I'm very involved in Climate Camp but I find the desire to browbeat people with the 'fact' that we're anti-capitalist and anarchist slightly unhelpful. I happen to agree with those politics now but I certainly wasn't sure when I started being involved and if people had told me off for having the 'wrong' views then I'd have left quite quickly as I'd think they were being unrealistic.
ReplyDeleteThe reality is that we've always attracted a range of people to what we do and it's that that has given us our movement-building potential. If we want to be a movement of people who already agree with us that's fine, but we'll remain very small and grow really slowly.
That's not to say that the politics of the spaces we create shouldn't be defined (as they have been in What Unites Us), nor to say that I don't find it frustrating when someone wants Climate Camp to lobby the government to do something. But I do think we need to design the spaces we create to accommodate people who believe in lobbying from time to time. I think a lot of people think that it's worth trying to lobby the government to do what's needed AND build alternatives that don't rely on corporations or government outside the system. Certainly I do both all the time, and I think the 'us' and 'them' feeling is not very helpful. Most of us are both at different times.
When we do Climate Camp stuff, some of us are clear that we're building alternatives outside the system and some of us might think we're just trying to stop a third runway. As long as the space as a whole isn't only about trying to stop a third runway, then we're putting our politics to a whole new set of people, while also working for something immediate. The tricky part is working out how to make sure everyone gets to hear our point of view without alienating them in the process. I don't think saying 'but we're anti-capitalist' or 'but we're anarchist' is likely to work at this.
@anonymous above,
ReplyDeleteI largely agree with what you are saying, its certainly important to have space that allows people to develop their understanding of the politics of climate change, and being insistent on explictly defining our selves as anti-capitalist or anarchist can be a hindrance. But as I was trying to say before, there is a balance to be acheived between being totally open and totally exclusive, and I think the current issues with climate camps identity partly arise from the balance tending towards being too loosely defined.
As 'ihadtosignuptopostacomment' says above, climate camp has the 'what unites us statement'. If you aren't familiar with it, have a read, it's in the 'about us' section of the climate camp website. It says that governments and corporations grip on economic and political power lies at the heart of the problem. I get the impression that some people active in climate camp either aren't aware of this as a shared understanding, or don't really agree with it. Perhaps all that is needed is a bit of discussion and re-affirming of our shared position.
just to reiterate: I think its essential to be open to new people and to build the movement (rapidly!), but having a good shared understanding is actually an vital tool for acheiving this rather than a barrier.
Regarding lobbying, I'm of the opinion that certain changes within existing institutions and systems will be neccesary before they themselves are replaced in the move to a world with a safe climate and greater social justice. The immediacy of the threat of climate change involves some rather inconvenient timescales in which we have to make changes, and some intermediary steps at reducing emmissions will need to be made before the eventual, more gradual, 'radical', transformation of society (Might add that I dont think this is a reformist approach, just that the 'revolutionary' change will happen over a longer period of time). Its really important to stress though that we should play our part in acheiving changes by taking action, building solutionis and giving voice to our politics/ideas, not through lobbying anyone. Perhaps there is a place for lobbying, but I definately don't think its something we should be doing. Using lobbying as a tactic will result in cooption and weakening of the movement. Victories acheived in terms of directly influencing goverment policy tend to reduce the momentum for greater change rather than increase it (make poverty history etc.)
Im basically saying that we need to have a strong shared understanding that is broad enough to build a mass movement, but specific enough to really address the heart of the problem.
Also we should accept that we are not going to acheive climate justice through a sudden revolutionary uprising, but this doesn't mean trying to acheive our aims through appealing to governments and pressuring corporations. In order to make the big changes that are neccesary we need to stay true to our 'radical' politics/ideas. Some of the smaller changes may be acheived by governments and corportaionns trying to keep up with a growing movement, but not through the movement acheiving its goals through them.
Gosh that all seemed a bit wordy. I hope people aren't put off by these kind of discussions, i think its really important that we have them.
chris
I lost interest when the author wrote "How can we change anything through violent motives?"
ReplyDeleteyawn
hi chris, I agree this is really useful and I pretty much agree with you.
ReplyDeletebut I think I'd want to make a slight distinction between what you're saying about lobbying and what you're saying about co-option. I think co-option is the big danger, not lobbying. I think it's strongly arguable that the successes that climate camp have contributed to in the last few years (Heathrow, Kingsnorth, Copenhagen - yes it's weird to describe copenhagen as a success but I think we need to be clear that it was, as the South didn't cave in) would not have been achieved without the *combination* of a direct action movement and a more conventional political movement that included lobbying in its arsenal of tactics. without everyone from CC to greenpeace and the women's institute opposing Kingsnorth there would never have been a change in government coal policy. Climate Camp has helped create the political space for more mainstream groups to be more radical too. Look at Friends of the earth coming out against carbon trading just before Copenhagen. So what I'm saying is that we need to recognise lobbying as an acceptable tactic among our diversity of tactics and not be too sniffy about it or about marching. I agree 'we' as CC shouldn't do lobbying but we shouldn't make people feel like they don't belong in climate camp if they think there's value in lobbying their MP about biofuels. Because the reality is that loads of people who do a lot in CC think there's value in doing it, even if it's only a little bit and it's only a tactical step, and they agree with the common ground of governments and corporations being the problem, and they put most of their energy into climate camp.
Now some people might think that these statements show that i've lost the plot and I think the government is part of the solution and we can stop climate change without changing the system. But as you say above timescales mean that we have to accept some incrementalal changes while we're creating a movement capable of forcing much bigger changes. What happens when something improves a bit is the crucial part. As you say with Make Poverty History there was a little success and the energy was lost. But government co-option is only half of the story of why that movement died. The other half is that it was never structured in a bottom-up way, it was created by NGOs and when the year was over they killed it as they had created a brand that was stronger than their brands. (It would have been quite interesting to see what happened if it had continued and to see if people could have worked within it to make it more accountable. But that's beside the point.) The problem as you say with lobbying is when people feel like we're on the right track because Ed Miliband is basically on our side. He maybe as an individual, but structurally he's not, and in his decisions he's not. So we absolutely need to stay radical as a movement and be clear that Ed Miliband and the Labour Party are not the solution.
I've rambled too. But I think my essential point is I would frame the discussion around lobbying as not being 'I really think we need to stop lobbying', but as being about 'we need to educate ourselves through Climate Camp the political space about the limitations of lobbying in the context of the wider and longer struggle ahead'
What a lot of words spent moralising and trying to divide and define. Here are some angry words for these self-appointed camp lieutenants:
ReplyDeleteyou opened the camp to everyone, you co-opted as many as possible to make your points, you used the banner of equality, horizontalism and anti-authoritarianism to grow the movement and its political weight, you hoped to radicalise every teenager who came into the grand friendly green tent city, and now, having USED them, you feel threatened by their 'liberalism', worried that the wishy washy tendency, the reformist brigade is now co-opting YOU.
You've started a (re)education group in London, without any awareness of the sinister overtones. you've tried (without much success) to reassert the radicalism of the camp at the London gathering, which left everyone totally depressed. some bright spark demonstrated your commitment to inclusivity by singlehandedly writing a manifesto which tried to alienate half the campers... You're having an aggressive bulshitting competition on the blog of someone who committed the terrible offence of questioning his neighbourhood meeting's direction, and yet again demonstrating the amazing ability of some sections of the camp to just blah blah blah some cheap critical theory.
Somehow you're embarrassed of what the camp has become! It's not the weak liberals who need to find somewhere else to play, it's those who can't bear its wide and friendly embrace and the people who make it strong and colourful. Ultimately, movement building is an end in itself. Making a sustainable camp where people can come and enjoy themselves and learn about climate issues and dance and learn songs and tactics and new skills and share stories is how we get stronger and how our message gets into all parts of life and society. That IS a radical politics. We live in such a bizarre world that friendliness, openness, non-heirarchy, non-consumerism and collective self-reliance are all revolutionary! and possibly criminal!
My hope is that you haven't sabotaged things on the basis that 'if we can't have the camp we want, nobody can have the camp at all'. Please, cease and desist this crazy, self-destructive, desperate and futile purge.
If you are so angry then why don't you bring this up at the next meeting and let us know who you are so that we can address your concerns?! It's easy to slag off CC online, but ultimately pointless to keep doing so anonymously.
ReplyDelete